AKIRA: How did your experiences with Ayahuasca begin?

FRANCESCO: My experience with ayahuasca started…with ayahuasca…many years ago! The first half of my first ceremony was delightful, the second half…just terrible. I shouldn’t have drunk a second cup, and I shouldn’t have drunk it in the city! And though the white apprentice shaman we drunk with had whistled wonderful icaros…he left at midnight, without waiting for everybody to be back in shape (i.e. me, still lying on the ground), saying “sorry guys…I can’t stay here any longer, I have to go and get the taxi!” …No comment! …
     We all drunk there for the first time. Few people had magical visions, so the purge was good. Others - me and Dino – did not have that. I saw the magic of the medicine in the movements of the young Peruvian lady who helped during the ceremony, whilst shaking her schacapa fan. I saw these sacred rhythmic movements like coming from another world. She was – to my eyes – the emissary of the medicine. It’s hard to explain, it was a sensation, a feeling. Interesting enough she wasn’t a shaman, but may be the medicine had chosen her that night to deliver this sense of magic.

A: Have you ever had any "Psychedelic Drug" experiences before?
If yes, what was the difference for you from the other psychedelics ?

F: First let me put this clear. I don’t like the use of the word “drug” – which is associated in our culture (in the best case) to either LSD-like psychedelic evasion or to “ecstasy” pills, or (in the worst case) to absolutely evil stuff like heroin, crack, cocaine and the similar. It’s truly a bad association. It creates conflict in the understanding of the true nature of things.
     And the true nature of things is that ayahuasca is a magical medicine, is a magical plant and – along with the other teacher plants and trees used by the shamans in Latin America – to be used traditionally requires a lot of discipline and sacrifices. No one could drink ayahuasca or do a plant diet for “evasion”. You drink it to see things more clearly, to get answers, to heal yourself, to see deep inside you. Not to go away from the world. Ayahuasca enhances the perception of the self and of our world, in a creative, substantial, un-explicable, magical way. And in a hard way too. To gain this insights on the nature of the self and of the world, often we have to suffer. It’s not a free gift. You pay something to gain these insights on the nature of the things. And even then, if you do not approach the medicine with respect, the only insight you will gain is that of your own bucket full of vomit.
     A famous Peruvian shaman said once that “ayahuasca is the king of drugs” and in virtue of this the medicine could cure drug addictions. It’s an interesting statement, doubtlessly true, but I am still not happy with the definition of “drug”. It’s misleading, has lots of bad associations in our culture, and in any case points at synthetic substances whose use has nothing to do with magical visions.
     Drugs may induce visions, but they don’t belong to the realm of the sacred or of the magic. I am sure this shaman used this definition of aya in a good provocative way, to raise consciousness of the people. Or simply, because of a limited English vocabulary.
     OK, having said this about “drugs”, I have never taken any “drug”. Somehow the very idea of using a “drug” is repulsive to me. I have tried Amanita muscaria, and Psylocibe mushrooms, many years ago, but these belong to the realm of plants and not of drugs. In my teens, I may have smoked a handful of times some “herb”, but only for curiosity. It has never been a pattern, or a habit. Besides, I didn’t like it !
     There is nothing so strong and powerful and at the same time so sacred as ayahuasca.
     May be because ayahuasca makes one see his or her own naked being in front of death. There is this fascinating association with death, unique – as far as I know – to aya-huasca, the vine of the dead. And I find fascinating this idea - and feeling - of death, and going through our own death as a catharsis. You can lie to everybody, you can’t lie to your death. As Castaneda’s “don Juan” said, “death is our eternal companion”. Yes, the idea of death, of measuring with our personal death when we drink ayahuasca, makes it all very serious. No frills. No unnecessary appendixes. Your true self – always buried beneath the social conventions – emerges victorious. To some of us, at least, is a victory.
    I just wish I could maintain unchanged in daily life the perception I have of the world during the drinking of ayahuasca. You see much deeper, and much stronger what is what. Enemies and friends, bandits and holy men. What you love and what you hate. Love and hatred, without false feelings. Ayahuasca - in my perception - opens up the way of the warrior, paves the way for the warrior inside us to surface. And, conversely, in order – as western – to experience ayahuasca, I feel compelled to follow the way of the warrior. During the rituals I feel and see many things, the sight of which you may withstand only coming from the path of the warrior. Sometimes the medicine is harsh. It opens up to our perception obscure realms and creatures of darkness. We see what with our normal eyes we would never have seen. The world is shown to us, is revealed for what it really is, an infinite mystery. That’s why I say that only as a warrior you can withstand the overwhelming insights on the mystery of the world offered by the medicine. All the more for us, modern westerns, sons of a decadent post-illuminist culture and civilization funded on the rational mind, and a rational interpretation of the world, the experience with the medicine is much more needed to shift of our consciousness, our consolidated experience of the world.
    The medicine has a revolutionary potential: it reveals us – in the most un-doubtful and straightforward way – that the world is magic. Hence “El Mundo Magico”... And the revolutionary potential of the medicine - in terms of perception of our world - is the main reason, in my view, of its ostracism in the western world, with the US at the forefront of the crusade. The seductions and constructions of the western civilization crumble during the ayahuasca experience. That world crushes under the influence of the medicine. And you discover values, essential values - like what you truly love, what you truly don’t need, what you truly hate, what you truly are - under the enormous pressure of the medicine. The social fabricated values, the whole idea of the world instilled into us from our birth, crumbles in contact with the medicine. Ayahuasca is the most revolutionary weapon available to day to western man to shift his idea of reality. But, it must be used wisely. It’s not for all. It’s for all those who come with humbleness, respect and reverence for knowledge. And steadfastness, too. Or, to say it in other words, with “unbending intent”.

A: How bout your origin ? Are you from Peru or England ?
How did you start to keep working with ayahuasca shaman ?
Or do you have any other reason for your passion to Peru & South America ?

F: I am originally from Southern Italy, and have spent one third of my life in London. I still find a lot of affinity and connection with the people of the Southern Hemisphere, though. After all, the New World was discovered by an Italian…no???
..... When I was 13 (30 years ago) my first encounters with the shamanism – in the broad Taoist sense of the word - were the “Tao Te Ching” of Lao Tsu and the “Chuang Tzu” of Chuang Tzu (my dad had the first Italian editions of these books, which was rather rare at the time, in the small southern Italian town I was living) which – like the books of Castaneda, that I discovered when I was 20 - had an high impact on my formation. That was love at first sight, or better, the feeling you have when you walk on a path with a heart. I could read these books a thousand times and still feel their freshness, power and beauty. My interest in religions, and shamanism in particular, goes back to three decades. My first palae-ethnology essay at the University of Lecce, in Italy, 23 years ago, was about the use of visionary plants among the Navajos and other Native American tribes, which - I hypothesized - was at the origin of many of their ancient rock art creations.
    My Rumenian topography professor, Dinu Adamesteanu, was the “spiritual brother” of Mircea Eliade, possibly the greatest historian of religions of our times. I managed to get his address in New York (where he lived) through my professor. Unfortunately, Eliade died before I could contact him. The only limit intellectual knowledge has… is that it is… intellectual knowledge! You can read a million books a million times, but that doesn’t necessarily lead you to knowledge. With some exceptions.
    When I lived in Southern Italy I was used to spend several hours a day swimming in the sea. The other half of the day I spent reading the Chuang Tzu on the beach. One day I was caught in a storm, whilst I was still swimming. The wind generated strong currents which in turn made the water cloudy. I was driven away by the current, despite my efforts. Then - with peace in my heart - I remembered the story (quoted in Chuang Tzu) of a man who bathed under the waterfall since he was a child. He was able to swim were not even fishes and turtles could dare to, in accordance with the principle of the Tao, he followed the whirlpools in their spins, and when the current brought him down he followed it, and when he was taken up, he followed it! I was so fascinated by this story that I resorted to swim underwater, grabbing pebbles or algae to resist the current, and slowly make my way to the shore. If I had panicked I would have most certainly died, and if I didn’t had this example impressed in my mind, I would have panicked. This has nothing to do, of course, with ayahuasca shamanism. But it has something to do, in some primordial form, with shamanism and the elemental forces. May be the tale was even an allegory of a shamanic descent into the underwater realm and then back to earth. It has several degrees of interpretation.
    In our modern era, I see ayahuasca shamanism as a concrete way of liberation for the civilized man. I see ayahuasca as having the power to liberate consciousness and freedom from our inner being. Freedom from intellectual, perceptual and social conventions. Freedom to re-discover our place on the planet, freedom to be what you truly are. Freedom to be a warrior if you want to, freedom to be yourself.
    My first encounter with ayahuasca in Peru was purely casual, few years ago, though I was joining an organized tour (yes, I went through that too…) with a big group, I ended up instead in the house of don Francisco the same night I arrived in Iquitos. Could not wait to do the ayahuasca ceremony the day after, with the mythical don Ruperto too, in Sachamama. At the end of the ritual, amazed by the experience, I said to don Francisco, in Spanish: “esto es veramente un mundo magico!” The first thing I remember was the powerful singing of don Ruperto, who opened the ceremony with a special icaro. The icaro, all in quechua, was special to me as the first words began with “shammuirimun…” – an invocation to the spirits. In the dialect of the southern Italian town I grow up, in Salento, “shammurimu” means exactly “let’s go to die”! The involuntary phonetical association of the quechua “shammuirimun” with the Salentinian dialect were overwhelming to me. In the middle of the jungle, in the middle of nowhere, drinking aya-huasca – the “vine of the dead” with two unknown shamans, singing – for what I could understand – “let’s go to die”... It was an initiation! I went there to die. All the ceremonies ever since done in Sachamama proved to be much more powerful and memorable. That is the way the medicine works inside me.
    Dino – my friend and associate of El Mundo Magico, had been in Peru before, but worked with shamans in the Andean tradition, not with ayahuasca. He then returned to Peru and lived there for nearly a year in the Loreto department of the Peruvian Amazon, “dieting” the plants in Sachamama first, with don Ruperto after, and doing ceremonies with many different maestros, including don Julio Gerena Pinedo, Francisco Silva, Felipe Ayala, and many others. He also lived with Maria Montenegro, an amazing Brazilian seer who lives on the outskirts of Iquitos. His “diet” of the teacher plants with don Ruperto was pretty a challenge: drinking un-boiled river water, sleeping on the floor, in a very rustic tambo with rain falling inside more often than not, living in complete isolation. This was in the remote area where don Ruperto lived, several hours by ferry from Iquitos. I feel very strong about the times of the Conquest. For some reason it’s one of the event in our history that exercise a profound fascination. Extreme times these were, but also fascinating. For the good and the bad.
    My passion for Peru is my passion for the Conquest, for the discovery of the New World, for shamanism, for the pre-Columbian civilizations, for the Incas, for the Mocha, and the other people who succeeded in walking upon that magical land. It is also my passion for ayahuasca, for the rainforest, for the plants of that part of the world.

A: I found it very interesting, your way of Learning and Mixing shamanism, traditional Buddhist - Taoist philosophies and western culture into the realm of Supreme Wisdom.
     I have seen, how some "Modern” or “New-Generation shamans" around the world, often have been educated to shamanism & guide especially western people. For example, they graduated Catholic School, speak 4-5 languages, read quite a lot of books, and have a religious and philosophic academic background even if they live in the middle of the jungle. The New-generation shaman is also a good translator of spiritual domains, for ordinary westerns. I mean, the traditional shamans are not like Zen-Master, they simply work with plants and Nature. They don't need to be a sort of Super-Wise person. Traditional Zen culture needs the master system to teach and practice meditation to future generations.
     What do you think about these,,, kind of modern "fusion" of Shamanism?
Is this western world influence, Isn't it ?
     Indeed, we have more money & industrial power than Amazon tribes, many shamans want to work with rich people too. On the other hand, not so many of us could believe or be confident on very poor "Real" Peruvian shaman wearing dirty T-shirt, Levi’s jeans and baseball cap.
     For me personally, I feel these real local healers are more tuning into our Nature world than western style educated modern shamans are ...
     What is your future vision of the shaman working with the plants ??

F: Thank you Akira for making this interesting question and comparisons. In the Far East knowledge has flourished in many different fashions and traditions, sometimes even distant from each other.
     Zen (especially) and Tibetan Buddhism (as well), have much more emphasis on form, discipline, ritual and ceremonial practices. Not so for the pre-Zen Ch’an School, which disregards ritual and sutras, and advocates sudden enlightenment, and the shamanic pre-Buddhist Bon religion of indigenous Tibetans. And not so for the Taoism of the origins, the primordial Taoism brought to light by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, which was much more free, dis-anchored from all social, political, ethical, religious and ritual conventions. They were the true free masters of antiquity in tune with the Tao.
     I will answer to your point about Peruvian shamans in T-shirt using a couple of anecdote from the life of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Lao Tzu was in his house, all was in total mess and disorder, with chicken roaming free inside, when he received a visit from a dignitary who reproached Lao Tzu about the status into which his house versed, with chicken droppings everywhere. Lao Tzu replied to the dignitary that he did not understand the principle of the Tao and kicked him out! In the Chuang Tzu it is mentioned the story of the mythical Yellow Emperor who came to visit – with all his cortege - a famous Taoist master, a hermit living on the top of a mountain. He asked the sage how he could manipulate the yin and the yang and penetrate the secrets of the Tao. The hermit – without hesitation told him that this wasn’t a good question and told the Emperor to piss off!! The Yellow Emperor retired in solitude for several months, and after a long period of hermitage, came back alone to where the hermit was. In total humbleness, walking on his knees, the Emperor approached the sage again, saying: “May I ask you how can I govern my life?” - The sage replied, “This is a good question! Come! I will teach you!”. The Yellow Emperor was at the time the most powerful creature on earth, and was renowned for his knowledge and wisdom. Still, he bended and walked on his knees when approached this Taoist hermit, living away from the world, on the top of a mountain. There is a profoundly beautiful lesson in both stories, about the simplicity of life, the freedom and power of these ancient masters, living in tune with the Tao. Taoism then evolved many centuries later into a more sophisticated and complex esoterical thing, with a very strong quest for alchemy and immortality.
     My heart is still with these primordial Taoist masters of the origins. With Lao Tzu who had his chickens roaming free in his house…Like it is still now for some Peruvian shamans! About the dressing code, this is again our consolidated unconscious imagery of the shaman… There are out there powerful, authentic, genuine shamans in Peru wearing dirty T-shirts, old broken trousers and walking bare feet. Even Chuang Tzu wore broken shoes… This is poverty… Has nothing to do with being or not a good shaman! At all! We have only been judgemental.
     When Castaneda saw - in a Mexican restaurant - scores of poor children waiting to clear (and feed on) the remains on the plates, the left over of the restaurant’s customers, he felt sadness and commented on the lack of opportunities that life had deserved to these children. Don Juan replied that all the men of knowledge that he knew were once children eating the remains on the plates of a restaurant. Don’t be fooled by appearances. In the west we have this obsession of the Indians, of the shaman, that must conform to our imagery.
     I went many years ago to a Pow Wow dance event in Greenwich (London). All the dancers were dressed up with wonderful traditional Indian ceremonial clothes, headdress with wonderful feathers, and the like. They were all white idiots dressed up, pretending to be Indians! The only native American present at the event was dressed in blue jeans, with a jeans waistcoat, a shirt, and a broad (American) hut!
     That set aside, I want to comment on the “new-generation” shaman and his presumed multi-cultural approach. You would be surprised to know that Iquitos – under European influence - has been a centre of diffusion of esoterism in the XIX century. Spiritualist and spiritist mystical beliefs merged with the tribal shamanic lore and Christian beliefs. In the late 1960s a sect called Brahamaism-Lamaism of the Amazon was created in the Amazonian city of Iquitos, in Peru. I do personally know Peruvian shamans who – in terms of multicultural, esoterical knowledge - have nothing to envy to their white counterparts.
     Of course, if you have spent 95% of your life in the city, reading books, writing articles, and doing lectures, you may have a greater degree of intellectual knowledge, than someone who has spent most of his life in the rainforest. But you also have much less power and much less knowledge of that environment and the forces that inhabit it. And true knowledge, in the Amazon, comes from the plant teachers, not from books. It’s a bit like in martial arts, not all true masters are from the East, there are good masters from the West as well. However, there is not a single Grandmaster that doesn’t come from Asia. Western people – however good – don’ t have access to the apex of this knowledge. Of course we can relate more to a shaman we can openly talk with, we can discuss with. A common feature of all the old shamans me and Dino met in the Peruvian Amazon is that they hardly talk, and if they do they talk just a little bit. It is a cultural divide, which doesn’t make things easy for us. But, in the end, what is important is your heart, your unbending love for knowledge in all its manifestations. Your love, your path with a heart cannot betray you. We need to be steadfast, true, humble and open to receive. If we go full of our preconceptions and beliefs, and just wait for another “don Juan” to pop out and cross our path, you will be disappointed. There are enough mysteries in the magical world of the plants, that the best we can do is to humbly listen, witness impartially what develops in front of us.
     I give you an example. During a ceremony in Sachamama a few years ago I was touched by the spirit of the ayahuasca medicine. A cool, little, spherical thing touched gently my shoulders and back during the ceremony, a few times. I opened my eyes, I looked around, and there was absolutely no one around me. It wasn’t a human touch. When I asked don Ruperto at the end of the ceremony, to see what it was, he said laughing that it was the espiritu de la planta! Plants – in Amazonian shamanism – are the teachers. The maestro is there to help, to introduce you, to protect you, but is not there to lecture you. An approach – this last – dear to western people. It may be more common that the plants themselves will talk to you, may be in the form of icaros. But that usually happens after an extensive “diet”. Shamanism in the Peruvian Amazon is self-explicative phenomenon. If you are after a “don Juan”, you will be most likely disappointed. It’s more likely you will encounter a “don Genaro”, who will throw you directly in the midst of powerful forces, with no or little explanations. Of course, there are various degrees of possibilities, and you shouldn’t take my words literally. Don Francisco, for instance, is one of the very few maestros who love to talk. But that isn’t the predilection of the vast majority of traditional old shamans.
     My vision of the “new generation shaman”?
     The power, strength, force, simplicity, sobriety and serenity of traditional old shamans joint with understanding and capacity of explanations. No matter how it comes: whether in full ceremonial robes, or in dirty T-shirts, bare feet, broken shoes or jeans.



A: After these ayahuasca Initiations, you have created "El Mundo Magico" and your ayahuasca internet site www.ayahuasca-shamanism.co.uk.
What was your idea and purpose for this site?
Do you have any other project between South America & Europe ?

F: The reason behind the creation of El Mundo Magico lies entirely in the perception that the world is what it is: a magical and mysterious entity.
    The rainforest, the plants, the animals, the ayahuasca are magic. Or, better, the ayahuasca helps you to see the magic of the world. There is nothing esoteric about this, and - much less - New Age.
    The word magic is unfortunately abused today. We are magic beings on a magic earth. This is my perception of reality. This is the perspective we would love people to focus on. Dino was impressed by the invocations to green magic, red magic, white magic and black magic of don Julio Gerena, during the ayahuasca rituals with him. In Peru the tradition of magic is still alive, and powerful. It’s pretty different from the New Age sha mans and perspectives: all sides of magic are invoked and dealt with. The extreme wilderness of the Amazon Rainforest and the remoteness of this environment must have been the greatest ally to the preservation of this culture.
    The idea and purpose of El Mundo Magico is to offer people first hand experience of this world of magic. First and foremost through the teacher plants and the ayahuasca rituals – in the native context. With different degrees of exploration, which range from the comfort and beauty of Sachamama Garden, to our shamanic expeditions to the Matzes Indians – who live in a remote area between Peru and Brazil – to our expeditions to the Aucayacu, where we offer ayahuasca rituals in special power spots known locally as supay chacra and cocha supay. This last is a beautiful lagoon, where we offer to experience a traditional ayahuasca ceremony staying inside a large wooden boat (12 m. long), at night, with two shamans, under the stars! In many respects what we offer to people can’t be experienc ed elsewhere. We put all our intent in making magic at work!
    These expeditions, together with the programmes in Sachamama - whether for plant “diet” or for retreat – also offer substantial revenues to local and native people, who benefit a lot from our shamanic programmes in the rainforest, which are all fair traded. In line with that principle, we only work with and employ local people in our shamanic expeditions.
    New project in the making is the creation of a UK-based charity which will have at its focus the preservation of native shamanic ethnobotanical traditions of Peru, through the creation of an appropriate reception centre and sustainable travel initiatives. We would love to be in the position of offering substantial poverty relief initiatives and funds for the shamans of Peru. And that will begin with the shamans that we know and work with. There is an absolute need for funds. If there is any fund-raising expert out there, please do get in touch with us!



A: What do you think any other "Ayahuasca Tour" things organized by general "Western" people ?

F: I do respect the work of people seriously committed in their mission of offering life-changing opportunities and challenges through the ayahuasca medicine. The expeditions we organize are not “ayahuasca tours” though, and I humbly believe we are definitely one of the very few - if not the only - organization around offering shamanic ethnobotanical expeditions to the remote areas where the Matzes Indians live, for instance.
    Our shamanic expeditions to the Aucayacu are also unique, in character and nature. You do ayahuasca ceremonies on special power spots. Our shamans are truly and authentically “Old Age” , in the timeless sense of the word. You also get a different sense of humanity, which in the west is disappearing. A: Can you tell me all bout your personal "Ayahuasca" experiences since beginning ? Do you have had many sessions with local shamans in Peru ? Who are they and what their name is? How did you meet them?
F:I think I have already answered part of the question. But, rather than going through all my ayahuasca experiences, which will take a long time, I will dwell on my most unforgettable ceremony. And this was in Sachamama, last September (2002), during the night of “el viento de Santa Rosa”, a tropical storm. The night sky was illuminated by spectacular lightening, the silence of the night broke by ferocious thunders and a stormy wind. Each time I drink the ayahuasca of Sachamama I get some radical messages from the medicine. That night, though I only drank half a cup – because I didn’t want to have too strong visions and experiences…. - I had the vision of the “Untamable Warriors”. The words came out in Italian, “I Guerrieri Indomabili”…and I kept on repeating this phrase for most of the night. It was incredible!
    I have never drunk so little medicine, and I have never experienced the power of the medicine as on that night. I have also experienced for the first time the divinatory powers of the medicine.
    I saw that the war in Iraq would happen, that Sa ddam Hussein was a ferocious bandit (and that he would be eventually eliminated); I saw that Mr Bush was not talking in name of the American people but in name of the dollar; I asked the medicine to held him accountable for war crimes; I have seen the suf fering inflicted on the Muslim people, “mass arrests”, “violations of human rights”, “war crimes”, “torture”, “raping”, abuses and other delights. Ayahuasca re-awakens our dormant sense of justice. I was suffering a lot, feeling all this - the price to pa y to the medicine - but my consciousness was also like a sharp razor blade, and I felt a radical urge for justice. That ayahuasca was simply extraordinary.
    When the ceremony finished, around 1 am, I returned with Ignazia (my partener) to our tambo. She saw a creature, like a black human shape lurking on the front area of our tambo. This creature than moved and jumped on the ground, between the bushes, squatting like a monkey. Ignazia was sure it wasn’t neither a monkey or a human being. I yelled ferociously at the creature, and it disappeared in the vegetation, in the darkness of the night sky, often illuminated by thunderbolts. The mareacion for me lasted until 4:30 in the morning.
    I was in physical pain, but my heart was happy, and my inner self even more. I was in total, absolute peace with myself. No doubts about anything. All was clear. Finally, towards the early hours of the new day, I got the message from the ayahuasca: “ La barca dell’amicizia e’ piena di immensi tesori, per tutti”, i.e. “the boat of friendship is full of immense treasures, for everybody”. I am still puzzled at the meaning of this words, why “the boat of friendship”? I have always felt deep attraction for wooden boats and ships. It’s the symbol of the journey, of the navigation in this and other realms. Coming back to your question, about the number of ayahuasca rituals I did, I don’t think it’s a matter of number, though I must have drunk it about 30 times.
    I drunk the medicine in Peru with different maestros and elsewhere in Europe too. But the number doesn’t count. There are people who practiced martial arts for 20 years, and have repeated for twenty years the same wrong thing. The same for Tai Chi. What we usually get in the West is a diluted, watered down form of tai chi. Go to China, go to the Chen village, go and study with Grandmaster Chen, and all of a sudden you discover that you have been dancing, rather than doing the martial art that Tai Chi in essence is. It’s not about quantity, it’s about the quality of the experience. There are people in the west who like this sort of unconscious competition, even with themselves. It’s not important how many times you drink, it is important how you drink, when and where you drink, what you drink and with whom.
    I have personally drank in Peru with don Francisco Montes, don Ruperto Peña Shuña, don Agustin Rivas, don Leoncio Garcia Sampaya, don Julio Gerena Pinedo, and don Alberto Torres Davila. Dino, as I said, had the opportunity to do many more ceremonies with many more different maestros, but I don’t necessarily rate the number of drinks as extremely important, though it may nevertheless be a great experience to drink ayahuasca with lots of different shamans.
    Sometimes, I warn you, it’s not a recommendable thing to do in Peru. At least if you don’t know well the people you are drinking with. There is a diffuse practice of bounding people to drink with the same shaman, which I understand and accept, and at the same time, I don’t understand and I don’t accept. Trying to be the more detached possible, I see it like learning martial arts with a maestro. If there is a consolidated relationship maestro-disciple, then I find it not only acceptable, but also necessary this bond of loyalty. However, in the context of occasional ayahuasca ceremonies - when there is not necessarily a maestro-disciple relation - I don’t accept this rule, and I don’t like the practice of bonding anyone. I love freedom. In any case, one should always be free to learn and evolve, and if that goes through drinking with different shamans, that’s good. But be cautious with whom you drink. There are always dangers associated with new discoveries…..Always. Especially when you are dealing with power, in South America.
    Dino, for instance, lost the protection of the chullachaki caspi that was given to him earlier on, in Sachamama, during an ayahuasca ceremony with unknown curanderos elsewhere… The spirit of the chullachaki caspi blew air twice on to him, during a ritual with don Francisco and don Ruperto in the Ethnobotanical Garden. The spirit of the plant liked him very much and offered him a protection. For jealousy or spirit of competition, other curanderos that he met afterwards, elsewhere, took away this protection from him. He realized that only after he was told by Maria Montenegro, the Brazilian seer and camalonghera with whom he was living at the time.
    To answer to your question of how did I meet them, well…don Francisco I met in his house in Iquitos…at night…purely by chance. Don Ruperto I met in Sachamama, where he was the maestro of ceremonies at the time, before retiring to his pueblito where Dino continued later on his “diet”. Don Agustin I met in Iquitos during an organized tour. Don Leoncio, again, was introduced to me by don Francisco, and was the other maestro of ceremonies in Sachamama. Don Julio and don Alberto I met in the remote Aucayacu, after Dino met them a year or so before. I feel the utmost affection for old shamans like don Ruperto, don Leoncio and don Julio. There is an ancient Chinese adagio which says: “a day with a maestro is like a life-time with your parents”. That’s exactly what I feel. Don Ruperto is a Capanahua shaman who can have access to the Muraya state, don Leoncio is a Shipibo shaman, a perfumero and oracionista, don Julio is a mestizo maestro palero, don Francisco is a maestro perfumero ayahuasquero (of Capanahua ancestry), and possibly the closest to our world. Don Alberto is a powerful maestro palero ayahuasquero, disciple of don Julio. I love them all, and we work hard to make things happening.



A: There are millions Ayahuasca ritual goes around the world.
What is the difference for you between the ritual with shaman in Peru & christian cult like Santo-Daime ?

F: I find the ayahuasca rituals in the jungle as the most genuine experience one can have with the medicine. It deepens the perception of the mystery of the world, the jungle becomes a magical entity. In the city it’s not the same thing. You may still benefit from rituals in the city, but it’s another matter. Also, I like shamanism – like everything else – in its most primordial forms. I don’t like the association with Christian thoughts and believes and rituals. I like and I mirror into shamanism for what it is: shamanism. If I want to go to Church, I can always do that. May be it works for some people, with a Christian background and belief. It definitely doesn’t work for me, and I am not particularly enchanted or impressed by the SD origins and liturgy. But I am not being judgmental here. It’s a bit like martial arts: anyone has his or her own predilection and affinity. My predilection and inner affinity is with traditional ayahuasca rituals in the rainforest of Peru, led by traditional Peruvian shamans (whether indigenous or mestizo).



A: I guess that Ayahuasca Drinks your shaman uses, they should be the high MAOI type. Can you recognize the recipe and ingredients when you drink it in 1st taste ?

F: I can only tell you that the sweetest ayahuasca I have drunk so far was done in Sachamama. When I use the word “sweet” I am only referring to the taste, and not to a feeling…The secret is certainly in the additive of the plant mixture. I know that the recipe varies from place to place, from shaman to shaman, and makes the ayahuasca brew the most complex entheogenic formula ever devised by human kind. In the Aucayacu they use together with cielo ayahuasca and chacruna, also toe’, mapacho, chiric-sanango, chullachaki-caspi, capiroña negra and other teacher plants and trees. There is no ayahuasca that tastes good, mind you. This magical brew has not been designed to be drunk for pleasure or leisure. It’s often a challenge in itself the very first act of drinking and swallowing the beverage!
    The only ingredients I can recognize are the chiric sanango and possibly chiricaspi, for the sensation of trembling/shaking and cold that they deliver, and canelilla for the relative sweetness that adds to the brew. Chiric sanango also – sometimes – is responsible for night vision. I remember one night in Sachamama, during a ceremony last Summer, I could see – in the total darkness – the entire ceremonial space as if it was illuminated by huge flashes of white light.



A: On the actual ayahuasca rituals of your "El Mundo Magico" shamanic tours, what does the shaman do for the people and you during it ?
Singing icaros, blowing tobacco smoke, sucking illness, massages and the other like ?

F: The ritual may vary depending on where it is done, by whom it is conducted, and for what reason. The constant in almost all traditional rituals is the initial protection of the ceremonial space (in Sachamama), the singing of icaros after about 20 minutes from drinking the first cup (both in Sachamama and in the Aucayacu), the blowing of tobacco and the sucking of illness during the curacion (both in Sachamama and in the Aucayacu). More specific healing sessions are engaged depending on the intent of the ceremony. For instance, one day, having violated the prescription of abstaining from sexual intercourse three days before the ritual, I had an arkana laid on me by don Leoncio, as extra protection for the ensuing ceremony. It was a powerful defence for the night of “el viento de Santa Rosa”…
    Don Alberto and don Julio work together when dealing with an illness, whether emotional, spiritual or physical, and engage and dedicated fully all their art, knowledge and power to clear the body of a patient from bad energies. This is not necessarily done during the ceremony. Can happen before or after the ritual. I especially love the “special effects” of their joint singing of the icaros…. A: How does shamans "See" where you are tripping & how they "Sing" icaros to guide our dream corresponding our actual exploded mind-states ?
Is this just magic ? If you found their skill or any technical stuffs, please let us know.
F: Well, this is a question to ask the shamans themselves, not me! It’s very mysterious the way the icaros work with ayahuasca during the ceremony. Sometimes they are overwhelming, and few people may don’t like – paradoxically – this singing during the ritual, whilst they are having a deep journey. It happened once to me, only once. It’s a difficult navigation in unknown realms during an ayahuasca ritual, and we all must acknowledge that without these icaros we may easily be lost in unknown territories. Personally, I feel deep reverence and respect for the singing of our shamans during the ceremony. Their style is all very different. From the melodic rhythms of don Francisco, to the metallic and powerful singing of don Leoncio, to the ancient and sweet singing of don Julio, to the vibrant singing of don Alberto, it’s all beautiful, fascinating, amazing. These are pieces of knowledge in ethereal form, made for the Spirit, and coming from the spirit. We are just spectators in the theatre of the Spirit. The shamans are the main actors, and the Spirit is the art director. It’s hard to describe these feelings.



A: You have recorded beautiful series of Icaros, al right ?
Can you tell me bout these Songs you have collected ?

F: We have collected a part of the icaros sang by the shamans we work with – all recorded live during our trips to the Amazon – and made a selection in the form of a music CD. Some icaros can go along for hours, and it’s just impossible to make a CD with all the live recordings we have. We have produced so far two icaros CD, the first is sold out, and the new one just come out (details on www.ayahuasca-shamanism.co.uk/icaros2.htm. There is a huge work behind these CDs, especially in terms of digital editing, since we had to purge all the complementary sounds associated with the ceremonies (coughing, vomiting, purging…and the like ….) to offer a pure, undisturbed version of the melodies, with which people may navigate and do their inner journey. It’s just impossible to do an ayahuasca ceremony without the accompanying “orchestra” of our bodily sounds…The icaros are messengers of the plant world.



A: How about your diet and discipline for the rituals?
Bananas and fish diet & no sex is very special thing for ordinary people from the city.
I guess it was so hard for us at the beginning.

F: There are two types of “diet”, the shamanic diet and the diet in preparation of the ayhauasca rituals.
    Bananas are not admitted during the shamanic diet. It’s instead a vegetable that resembles the banana in look and shape, called plantain (Musa paradisiaca, belonging to the same family of the banana), which is used when very green, then roasted and eaten without seasoning. Bananas and mature plantains are both very sweet and are not allowed during the shamanic diet. Sex, is to be avoided both for the diet and in preparation of the rituals. In the last case the recommended abstinence period is 3 days before until 3 days after the rituals. All curanderos in Peru stress that the most important thing in the diet is “dietar la mujer”…, literally “dieting the woman”, i.e. no sex! The other essential element is abstaining from pork meat. This is crucial - again - for both the diet and the ritual (in preparation of which one must refrain from eating pork 15 days before, all the way through 15 days after the intake of ayahuasca). There are people who have died having taken on the same day pork and then ayahuasca. Other people have gone mad from having had sex immediately before the ceremony. You have to be careful. You have to approach the medicine with respect and reverence. Otherwise better to stay where you are.
    The proper shamanic diet also implies isolation (though this is not a requisite for the participation to rituals). Of us all, it was Dino who did the shamanic diet in the jungle. He did the first bit in Sachamama, in relative comfort, and the second part in the most extreme conditions, together with don Ruperto, in his tambo in a pueblito several hours by motor-boat from Iquitos.
    It was hard enough drinking the plants, sleeping on the floor, without mattress, and the isolation, not to count drinking un-boiled river water…But you can endure all the difficulties associated with the diet if you have an unbending intent and a pure heart. Luckily the ayahuasca has some strong anti-helminthic and anti-biotic properties, which made possible for Dino not to catch anything serious during his months of diet, away from the world, without medicines, telephone or even a solid roof….The fish, however, was caught fresh everyday! Sachamama is now a beautiful centre which caters well for western people needs, and whilst still offers to “dieteros” the primitivism of a traditional tambo, it also offers the comfort of a modern functional structure.

A: Okay, Back to substance, can you tell me about what the power of the Shaman is? & How they handle this power ?
What is a good shaman ?

F: You feel it, during the ceremony, when they sing for hours and hours relentlessly, whilst you cannot even keep your eyes open! How they handle this power? If they are wise maestros they will handle their power in a safe and protective way for the people who joining their ceremonies. What is a good shaman? Someone powerful, yet responsible and humble. Who work with integrity.



A: Ayahuasca could show us one of the deepest complexity of human brain.
How about your hardest or deepest trip ?

F: My hardest trip? Few years ago, in a farm (in Europe), with 30 + people, and scores of children making the most terrible noises they could do, jumping on the floor, screaming, joking, crying, and other delights. I have never seen such high degree of irresponsibility anywhere in Peru. An Ecuadorian apprentice-shaman led the ceremony. A good shaman should not have allowed this to happen. But this is apparently the trade mark of the rituals organized by this group, together with some singing, in front of the fire. I couldn’t stand it.
    People twisting the tradition in such a way that you lose track of what is what anymore. No icaros, no dark, no silence, no peace, no quietness. They offered to all participants some “blessed” tobacco, a mixture of ordinary cigarettes and pipe tobacco, which apparently was more holy than the genuine mapacho I carried from Peru. You could only smoke that crap, and not allowed to smoke mapacho, as this wasn’t blessed by them…I have never met or heard of a single shaman in Peru that would allow these stupid rules to take place in a ceremony. This is pure madness and my gut feeling was – and is still now – that they are just messing around with the tradition and the medicine. The name of the organization? They use – in a singular fashion - peyote and ayahuasca together, in their rituals. Does it help you?...



A: Ayahuasca vision is so varied.
We see so deep spots of our whole life and death. Can you talk bout dark side of ayahausca dream personally ?
I feel sometimes that kind of negative spirits could get into our mind while we dream...

F: I believe there are different realms accessible with ayahuasca.
    Among these, one is the “dream” realm, in the common sense of the word, where visions are too chaotic and not necessarily related to enhanced awareness and perception of reality, we may see demons, ugly beings or even holy things, which not necessarily exist out there.
    And another realm, which not necessarily relates to the domain of visions, which expose us to a very subtle and sophisticated perception of reality. With “vision”, I also intend to express this subtle perception of reality, anticipation of events, divination, prophecy, sensations that something is deeply right or absolutely wrong.
    During the night of “el viento de Santa Rosa”, quite a few strange things happened. We left the door of our tambo in Sachamama closed, and behind that the toilet door closed with a kind of lock, to avoid animals to enter from the back side of the tambo, half open. When we came back, at the end of the ceremony, Ignazia saw this strange human-like black creature squatting in front of our tambo. She screamed, and the creature jumped off in the wilderness. I thought at first it may have been an hallucination, given the power of the ayahuasca we drunk that night. But then, a fraction of a sec after, I saw the door of our tambo – which we left closed – wide open, and behind that the door of the toilet, wide open. It could not have been the wind, since it was locked. So, I immediately realized that Ignazia must have been right. Amid thunders, lightening, rain and wind I yelled with ferocious strength at this “creature”, cursing it whoever it was, wherever it was, from wherever it came from. I was mad of anger, but I was perfectly sane and in control of what I was doing. Ignazia thought I was just going mad, but I was not. The ayahuasca that night – and probably the night itself - were more than powerful, and the arkana (protection) of don Leoncio proved to be a superb protection. I had the mareacion until 3 and half hours later, and I was constantly repeating in Spanish: “aqui’ no pasa nada!” (Nothing will permeate the protection). “Todos sonos buenos amigos aqui” (All are good friends here).     It’s always important to have a good maestro to guide you during – and after - the ceremonies. You are dealing with power, and you need protection and defences. Think at what happened to Pablo Amaringo…I remember the words of Castaneda’s don Juan: “A man approaches knowledge as if he was going to war”… Only as a warrior one can resist on the path of knowledge.



A: Shaman can not work out of nature, does he ?
Ayahuasca drink's becoming very popular now, drinking ceremony everywhere on this planet !
How can we guide this ayahuasca fashion to our future community culture ???
I feel often so many people "play" with it. We need real information about this psychedelic, don't we ?
What do you think about "general use" of ayahuasca in the city ???

F: It’s true. The shaman cannot work outside nature. As Francisco Montes put it “Without plants the shaman could not exist”.
    How to guide the ayahuasca fashion? Hard to say. You have to do your own personal quest. If someone has New Age feelings, he will naturally associate with New Age people and groups. If he is Christian, he will naturally associate with ayahuasca churches, if he wants to experiment on his own…he will experiment on his own. It’s a choice, directly associated to the nature of the seeker…
    Again, I have to remark one more time one essential thing: don’t call ayahuasca a psychedelic, don’t call it a drug. It’s a sacred, magical medicine that has been around for millennia. Don’t call it like you did, for a matter of respect towards this medicine, and for another important reason. This association with “psychedelics” only legitimate the perpetuation of the persecution from those ignorant, blind forces that rule and set law around the planet, the US at the forefront of this policy, and want to make ayahuasca illegal.
    The only good thing of ex-President of Peru, Fujimori, was to resist the US government pressure in declaring ayahuasca illegal, even there! By contrast, he declared ayahuasca integral part of the traditional medicinal heritage of Peru. What I think of the use of ayahuasca in the city?
    Well, on occasional basis, with the right shaman, in the right setting, it may certainly be beneficial. But the rainforest has been the place, is the place, and will – hopefully – remain the best possible place for doing this experience.
    There is also another – social and economical reason – for which people who can afford it, should go to the rainforest. People who live in most areas of South America, and Peru is no exception to that, are in an appalling state of poverty. Everyone travelling there – however you want to do it, and with whoever – benefit local economy and local people, with various degrees of participation. For sure, by doing only rituals in the city, there will be will benefit only to the organizers and – eventually – to the single shamans participating. I know very well how our people in the Aucayacu (in Peru) feel every time we bring a new traveller. It’s like a king is arriving! A: Oh, Final question,,, I want to ask you about the "MARIRI". I remember, Icaros of Jose Campos, Often Shamans sing about "Mariri". Can you explain me these meta-physical phenomenon of it ?
F: The mariri…Ahh..The magical phlegm of the curanderos!
    A mysterious substance that can be regurgitated at will by the shamans. According to don Ruperto Peña Shuña it can be passed on to a disciple either mouth to mouth (once regurgitated it is contained in the hand of the maestro and thus passed on to the mouth of the disciple) or through a pipe.
    Dino, for instance, received his mariri by smoking in the pipe that don Ruperto prepared for him smoking the flowers of a special plant once they fell into the river water. It’s something that escapes rational comprehension. It is used by the shamans as a defence, as a protection.
    Anthropologist Luis Eduardo Luna hinted at the possibility that the mariris might be associated to the same mysterious force that the arkanas and the icaros come from. It is unique to South American shamanism.


A: Cheers, Francesco !
 

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